Student Loan Forgiveness

Apr 18, 2024 16:17

As someone who only has a few hundred in student loan debt, I'm in favor. Ensuring people "bootstrap" their success with copious amounts of debt is a f**ked up idea. I get that the concept is it ensures they work hard and strive to succeed to pay it back which encourages a society of success and growth. In practice, most degrees are worthless and only ensure people have even more crippling debt than they would otherwise have. Although keeping people in poverty is seen as a plus by certain types as well. Keeps the "riff raff" busy and from climbing the ranks.

Apr 18, 2024 17:38

The argument (more like a complaint) I keep hearing is “why should I have to pay for someone else’s student debt?” I think this is a weird thing to say though. One could say this about a lot of other public goods we all pay taxes for. Why should I pay for the streets, roads, and highways? Why should I pay for all the water lines I’m not using? Why should I pay for the aircraft carrier I don’t even get to ride on? People are complaining more about this than they have about the many, many cost overruns of defense programs like F-22, F-35, B-2, the Navy’s LCS fleet just to name some notable examples. And the amount each individual might pay for this debt forgiveness program would be trivial, but to a lot of them, there’s a dogmatic commitment to stand against anything that looks like a “handout,” especially if their favorite news pundit tells them it’s bad. The undercurrent flowing beneath all of it is also this weird and selective anti-elitism thing where anything remotely attached to academia is “elitist” and probably also woke.

Deleted User

Apr 18, 2024 17:45

Right there with you Grumman. I owe about 40 grand.. I have only read small portions of the specifics but from what I understand, if you don't apply for forgiveness they will be coming in to collect one way or the other, be it garnishment or some type of arrangement on payments. I could be wrong but if you have any more information on this please let me know. This next wave of forgiveness is aimed more towards public servants etc..Im a teacher but I hate this 3rd round of Obama. One way or the other I'll have to get it worked out for sure.

Apr 18, 2024 18:21

I have no more information than you at this point. I applied the last time but it was struck down by our idiotic Supreme Court. I expect the Republicans to kill this effort as well, in their infinite stupidity.

1984

Apr 18, 2024 18:43

My only question is, where will this money come from - it's not going to be a small amount? I think Biden and his cronies have run out of oil-rich nations to invade, so that's out the window. Assuming it will have to be from tax increases?

Deleted User

Apr 18, 2024 19:09

Stupidity on both sides for sure. Just spoke to a colleague about it, he said there's a bunch of qualifications for forgiveness. At least ten years of consistent payments prior to applying, among others.

Apr 18, 2024 20:06

They need to fix the underlying problems to it doesn't happen again. Forgive the debt, but then also put stuff in place to prevent predatory lending. If they forgive the debt and don't change the underlying causes, it will encourage the same cycle to repeat once again.

Apr 18, 2024 20:28

Agreed, Darkhorse.

1984, I could see some of the money being taken out of the defense budget without any significant damage to our defensive readiness, but that will never happen because Americans don’t have the right priorities.

Apr 18, 2024 20:36

Yeah. Streamline the defense budget. Invest smarter with less waste. Also, they could cut down on "corporate welfare". Just sayin'. It boggles the mind how people just accept wasted tax dollars to help the ultra rich and military industrial complex as a given, and then get stingey and toxic when it comes to helping other regular citizens. Like rabid dogs fighting for table scraps.

Apr 18, 2024 20:52

I could not agree more. I suspect it’s because they don’t really think too deeply about the topic and just regurgitate what their particular media silo says.

Apr 18, 2024 20:56

Yeah, that's definitely what most people tend to do. The same people who talk about not trusting the "experts" trust the "experts" of their own chosen faction rather unquestioningly.

Neon Bright Star ⭐

Apr 18, 2024 21:06

The elephant in the room.... Why is university so expensive in the first place? Where is all that tuition money going to exactly? Because teachers don't make nearly that much from being teachers. Why are textbooks 200 dollars? Why do we even need text books when you can get a lot of those resources online? Why does college waste our money making us take general requirement classes that aren't needed for our degree path (like diversity/multicultural classes and such for an engineering degree)? I think for me, I am not against forgiveness but rather I think we should be taking a good hard look at the universities and their exploitation of students and kickbacks from textbook publishers they choose.

Mr Beelzeebubbles

Apr 18, 2024 21:12

I have a problem with the whole monetisation of higher education. It kills social mobility, stifles meritocracy and creates a 'customer' attitude in students who have paid a small fortune, and therefore expect the university to implant the required knowledge in their heads without any effort on their own part.

Higher education should be based on ability, not on how much debt you acquire or how deep daddy's pockets are.

Apr 18, 2024 21:19

Well, uni used to not cost anywhere near as much as it does now. Then people like the Koch brothers pushed for uni to be run more like a business and not get as much government funding.... And well, here we are.

Apr 18, 2024 21:53

Tuition has doubled since I graduated high school. When I applied to the University of Denver and was accepted in 2002, the tuition at that time was $29,000. Today, if a student is living on campus, it’s over $76,000. Just the tuition without on campus room and board is over $56,000. Needless to say, even 20 years ago it did not make sense for me to go to DU for an undergraduate degree in history (especially since you can’t do much with it by itself). I opted for the much cheaper Metropolitan State University of Denver, so my loan amount is probably under a quarter of what it would be had I gone to DU. And what exactly does that $56k - $76k go towards? If you walk around DU’s campus, they’ve definitely built a lot of ostentatious buildings in the last couple decades, but beyond that, I think you’re paying for brand recognition more than anything else.

Deleted User

Apr 19, 2024 03:03

As some of you may know, I graduated film school in spring 2021. I applied for crew positions for every single movie and TV show that came through New Orleans. I got to be an extra 6 times so far. That does not cover student loan debt. Not made a single repayment yet, but I'm on the right path.... have some stuff going on...

Apr 19, 2024 13:42

I have always been in favour of forgiving student debt for key things society needs. Nurses and doctors being an obvious one. But then you get into a debate about what should fit into that criteria. I think I am overal in favour of it providing people stay in their country and pay tax etc. I think what puts me off is people doing degrees I think are pointless and getting it paid for.

Apr 19, 2024 13:44

I also agree with Beezeelbubbles about social mobility and giving people from poorer backgrounds the oppotunity based on academic ability rather than how much money they have

Apr 19, 2024 14:30

I think the people who tend to be against it think all college students are getting degrees in sociology or communications. What I would want to make people realize is that they benefit from the education of doctors, accountants, engineers, nurses, historians, social workers, biologists, teachers, physicists, and on and on. And yes, women’s studies, sociology, and fine arts degrees which some people deride are valuable to a balanced and advanced society as well.

Apr 19, 2024 16:03

I think theres really a debate to be had with that though. You could argue that degrees give people critical thinking and a certain level of education which helps in the job market. However should the state be fully funding of all them if there isn't a clear what they add to society? Should it only be debt forgiveness for degrees that offer skills where there is a shortage so people are encouraged to go for them? I think all of that should be up for discussion rather than just a blanket forgiveness.

For full disclaimer I went to uni. But only did 2 years of a law degree.

Neon Bright Star ⭐

Apr 19, 2024 16:24

I would argue that social degrees like gender studies are a scam. They are a huge waste of money and are not necessary whatsoever. The information that would be taught in such a class can be found on the Internet or in a library for free. If you want to waste thousands of dollars on a degree like that tax payers shouldn't have to pay for it. It's not a necessity to perform that kind of work in the way a degree is necessary to be a doctor for instance. People with liberal arts degree end up working entry level or low skilled jobs often because there is no work in that field. It's a waste of money

Apr 19, 2024 17:26

I didn’t want to be the one to pass judgment on those other degree fields not knowing what their curricula are. One thing I’ve learned from being in school these many years is that values are subjective. I tend to agree that the value for certain degrees seems lower than for others, but this could very well be a situation akin to not knowing the value of mosquitoes and other pest species in an ecosystem. Having never been in those programs, I don’t know how serious the level of study is nor what those professions contribute to our social ecosystem. There are probably plenty of people who don’t see much value in becoming a military historian like I am, but I can definitely argue the opposite and not simply out of self-interest either.

Apr 19, 2024 20:24

I'd say it's valuable to have a way to learn about those topics. But really, beyond academia (which is an insulated world that largely is clueless about the values, needs, or plight of the common man) many of them are kinda pointless.

Ex: My brother has his master's in history but really can't do a damn thing with it. History is a valuable subject to learn about, lest we repeat it. But there's next to no real demand for it as a major. It can be useful to have a good background for other areas though like urban planning, politics, etc. I'd say everyone needs a pretty well rounded education which is why uni pushes so hard for us to take "core classes". Even then, many don't seem to retain anything from history, language, math, etc.... Likely because they do just enough to get by and then never use or think about it again.

Mr Beelzeebubbles

Apr 20, 2024 00:07

I reckon 50 years ago you might have been able to describe academia as insulated, but with current academic salaries they're pretty much members of the working class.

Apr 22, 2024 14:55

I'd still call them insulated. "Those that can't do, teach"

Often what is taught is not truly relevant to the outside world. A great example of this is comp sci programs. A popular language and paradigm to teach is haskell, a functional programming language. In the real world, NOBODY uses haskell. Barely anybody even uses the functional paradigm over the object oriented one, although I'd argue functional is better in many ways but that's neither here nor there. Also in academia the OSI model of networking is very heavily taught and used. In the real world, literally nobody uses it. The DoD (TCP/IP) model is what's used because it's what is actually useful for network troubleshooting. All the system/application layer stuff included in the OSI model is worthless for network troubleshooting and networking professionals.

Academia would know and recognize this if the people in academia actually worked in the fields they are "preparing you for", but in truth many of them, particularly in STEM related fields, have never worked in those fields and thus don't really know what's relevant to teach for those fields. They just follow what they also learned in school. In the case of comp sci, this data is often severely outdated as the field goes through major shifts every couple of years as new technologies come, old ones are deprecated, and stacks change.

Apr 22, 2024 14:57

Salary wise though, agreed. They get paid absolute s**t. For a bit of background as well, I work in IT within higher ed currently and have for a little over a decade. My mother is also a teacher and most of my coworkers have a teaching background as well. This definitely does influence my biases, as do my experience with attending a few colleges and watching my siblings and peers graduate with degrees they can't use due to lack of demand and/or relevance.

Gothicvamp777

Apr 26, 2024 04:46

f**k BIDEN!!!!

Gothicvamp777

Apr 26, 2024 04:46

IF YOU ACCUMULATE DEBT, PAY YOUR DAMN DEBTS!!!!

Apr 26, 2024 08:05

Oh, look. The "non-conformist" who simps for big corporations and predatory lending. Good going, Mr. "ani-illuminati". Your really sticking it to the powers that be.

Apr 26, 2024 12:41

Huge surprise that Vamp has never been to college.

Apr 26, 2024 22:28

You can learn stuff in college, but it's doubtful you can learn how to learn there. How to think for yourself. If you haven't already figured that out, college will probably be of little benefit.

Apr 26, 2024 22:49

That wasn’t my experience. It’s true that you get exposed to a lot of liberal ideas, some of them very stupid, but if you have the right professors, you’re likely to learn how to at least evaluate sources of information critically. Vamp obviously never learned how to do that.

Apr 26, 2024 23:29

It's really the same attitude as hard left "wokeism". People are buying into extremist ideologies wholesale without critically thinking and calling the other side conformists.

Apr 27, 2024 07:45

That wasnt my experience from university tbh. I dont remember the lecturers enforcing any sort of ideology. We did have left and right wing groups at uni formed by the students but thats been the case for hundreds of years. They were pretty benign though, more like drinking clubs rather than politically active. Most of the political stuff was really done by the student union(marches over certain issues or campaigns) and that had a mix of left and right wing people in it. If anything university exposes you to people from different backgrounds and opinions more than my high school where most people came from a similar background in a small town. Its good to expose yourself to these people so you can hear a different viewpoint.